428 FE in a '57. Cooling Suggestions?

[birdzilla]

Please humor me, I'm old. I know it's sacreligious. But it's what I've thought the '58 'bird should've been since the 1958 model introduction. Maybe... try to think of it as a one of none '58 "E" code... or a '57 Shelby KR. Anyway, I need to get my parts out of my wife's side of the garage. The '10 cruzin' season is slipping away!

The mission:
Putting an 8V FE/AOD trans/Detroit Locker w/3.50 gears into my '57 with no engine parts or tires sticking out of the sheetmetal with out cutting, drilling or welding the frame.

The braking issues have been addressed with a bolt on conversion to front disk brakes. Handling has been improved with heavy duty sway bars front & rear, gas charged shocks, higher rate front springs, an additional leaf added to the rear leaf springs and 225/60R 15 wide white sidewall tires.

I've seen the FE in 2 seaters done before. My personal twist is utilizing a crankshaft driven Aviaid external oil pump with a Canton rear sump road race style pan to allow the FE to sit low enough in the chassis to fit the 2X4 medium riser intake under the hood. (The pan is a front sump sliced below the mounting flange with the sump moved to the rear and re-welded - not the double sump 4X4 truck pan) The oil is routed to the external pump via a welded in pickup and AN -12 hose along the passenger side of the oil pan. It's all mocked up, the accessory drive including power steering & air conditioning is worked out and it all fits nicely in the engine bay/transmission tunnel.

The brass 3 core radiator I had planned to use with a Lincoln Mk VIII electric fan didn't pass the pressure test. My thinking is the FE with aluminum heads and Edelbrock high volume aluminum water pump should be no more difficult to cool than the Y-block with it's quirks. Anybody had good luck with a particular combination? Griffin, Ron Davis, US Radiator or others? 1" tubes or 1 1/4"? Triple pass?

 

[gbhrps]

birdzilla,
I'm betting that you won't get an answer from this crowd because no one will know what you're talking about. I certainly don't.

That aside, I can tell you that you are not the first to put a 428 into a small bird. The restoration shop I worked for several years ago specialized in small birds and Auburns. I recall that the shop owner made a trip to Dallas with a customer of his to look at a 57 bird. Amos Minter, or his son, personally showed them one with a 428 squeezed into the engine bay. I seem to recall being told that the floorpan and tranny tunnel were severely hacked up. What turned the customer off the car was that the only way to get the motor started was to shoot ether into the carb.

You might try a site more dedicated to hotrodders for the answers you're seeking. BTW, when you get the beast finished and running, I'm sure there are many that would like to see some pictures here! Good Luck!

 

[birdzilla]

Thanks for your response. I haven't had much luck finding information online or anywhere else about this swap. It's been mostly trial & error. Seems that since about the late 60's the 2 seaters have been restored to original and kept that way. Definitely the smart thing to do, but I'm a buy high sell low person.

I have closed the holes in the radiator support and fit a crude air dam under the support in an attempt to keep hot air from the engine bay from recirculating around in front of the radiator at low speed. I was hoping to run with the existing 3 tube brass core radiator with a '93 Lincoln Mark VIII 18" 2 speed electric fan the remainder of this summer to see if it would be adequate. My radiator failed the pressure test.

I drove the car for 3 cruising seasons with the stock 312 and it would overheat when the air temp was above 90, parade speed/stop & go traffic or climbing in the mountains. My understanding is the 312 had some design issues that made it difficult to cool i.e. side by side exhaust valves and the water pump spacer. I have to repair or replace my radiator. I'm just wondering what combination of fan, radiator, shroud, waterpump works good for an air conditioned 'bird in summer heat and 4th of July parades? I think if it will cool the 312, it should be a good place to start. Anybody out there able to drive their 2 seater in a parade, on a 95 degree day with the air conditioner on and maintain a coolant temp of 210 or below? I'd be interested in a detailed description of that cooling system.

 

[gbhrps]

From my past readings, etc., I seem to recall that it was suggested that in addition to the normal belt powered fan, a pusher electric fan on the front of the radiator really helped in parade situations.

You might try contacting the service guys at Amos Minter in Dallas/Fortworth. I'm certain that they can point you in the right direction. Just pop Amos Minter into a search engine and you'll get his site. Good Luck!

 

[timtron]

good luck with an air cleaner. 460 fits (barely) have to use the triangle edelbrock foam deal, fits into the "scoop". Only option. I run at 210 with the 460 and the stock radiator, with an extra core in front of the radiator for some extra capicity. I did not set up the cooling system, and I not convinced that it coulent be better. Id like to try the triple flow aluminum radiator, if I gould get it down 10 to 15 degrees that would be awesome. Let me know what you come up with

 

[birdzilla]

Thanks for the picture! That's stuffed. 210 deg in the summer heat would be fine with me! That's my target. Tell me more about your setup:
1) Is there a shroud?
2) Engine driven fan or electric?
3) Are you running a full additional core or something like a transmission fluid cooler?
4) What transmission is it hooked to?
5) Steering Box clearance for the headers?

It looks like a well done conversion.

 

[timtron]

I sat in traffic for 2 hours (in san francisco mind you on a not so summery day) and it was @ 210. electric puller fan only, the extra core is (i believe) a large heater core that holds about an extra gallon, mounted in front of the rad.

I did not build the car, I have had it for about 4 months doing some updating and repairs. The car was put together in 1978. So how some things were accomplished, Im not too sure about.

It has a c4 trans, mustang II front brakes, a jag xke rear (which allows the 295 tire), a 60's gm tilt collumn, 65 mustang bench (w/armrest)... Thats all thats coming to mind right now. Oh and exhaust manifolds (no headers)

Ive replaced the factory gauges with new autometers, got all of the lights and signals working, wipers too (bronco electrics), relocated the battery, to prepare for the firewall mounted booster and master cyl. Right now it has a single bowl 65 tbird cylinder, and stock vac booster. And some general engine detailing.

BTW I like your shroud, bought? or made?

 

[birdzilla]

BTW I like your shroud, bought? or made?

Sounds like you've got a pretty good cooling system already.

My shroud is a '93 Mark VIII 2 speed fan with shroud I got on ebay. I'm planning to use it on the stock style 3 core brass radiator, with a Hollister Road Company switch/relay setup. It's got a low speed switch @185, a high speed @ 195 and a switch for low speed for the AC. I got a B&M trans cooler with it's own fan to keep the trans heat from the radiator. I'm hoping it cools well enough to get through the end of this season. Then maybe an aluminum Griffin with 2 rows of 1.25" tubes if I need more capacity.

Did your left exhaust manifold have to be trimmed to clear the steering box?

 

[timtron]

I had assumed that it still had the factory steering box, but now im thinking that its probably a late model box. There are 2 threaded holes on the frame that are probably were where the factory box mounted?? (the original builders arent alive anymore) I can get you some pictures at some point. But no there is plenty of clearence

Dosent one of your pictures have a shroud on the factory radiator already, it looks like it fits great? I want to go with the cool craft aluminum radiator, that looks like the stock one, and have them baffle it for triple flow, but right now its kind of a not broke dont fix kind of thing

 

[birdzilla]

I'd be interested in which steering box you've got, if there's any way to tell. The stock one is right between cylinder #5 & 6, where the header tubing should go. It's also got a lot of dead space on center.

The picture of the radiator is with the Mark VIII fan & shroud. It's the only one I have posted on this site that shows the radiator. I trimmed about 1" of the depth to gain clearance for the water pump pulleys, trimmed off the 4 mounting tabs from the sides, and had to notch the bottom for the lower hose outlet. It fits the radiator like it was made for it.

 

[timtron]

Yeah I agree that the shroud definately looks like it was made for it. Im gonna have to give that a thought. I was looking at the steering box, and it is close to the manifold, about 1/4 inch, the manifold is fairly snug to the engine, i dont know the FE vs. the 385 that well to know the difference in the block size or exhaust size diff., the steering box sits under the engine mount. The motor is in at quite an angle though, that was done to save the firewall from hacking out to fit the c4.

Im not completely satisfied with cooling system, I know it is working decent. It hasent gone over 210, but it hasent gone below that either. Once it hits 210 it stayes there even at highway speeds, at night lol. I have been thinking about trying a shroud, every couple of degrees helps

 

[timtron]

heres a couple of pics of the steering "contraption".

 

[birdzilla]

Thanks for the pics. Interesting. It gives you a little more room than I've got with the stock setup. It's difficult to tell exactly what it is, but with the hose connected to the box, it eliminates the control valve/cylinder. Could be a Saginaw.

 

[timtron]

it does have a saginaw pump, you can see it in the other pics. Should have the new brakes in in the next week or so

 

[birdzilla]

Is the steering rack & pinion?

 

[timtron]

no rack, traditional steering linkage. hows your project coming along?

 

[birdzilla]

Big Milestone This Week

The motor fired up and ran on a test stand for about 40 min for cam break-in. A few minor issues but no leaks, no smoke, no excess metal in the oil. Sounded strong. Whew! Glad that's behind me.

Brought it home for a final trial fit & shifter test fit. I'm hoping the test drive will be in the next week or so.

 

[timtron]

what did you come up with for an air cleaner?

 

[timtron]

Im putting mine back together as well, Im hoping to have it ready for a car show next saturday.

new fuel lines

beadblasted intake

painted valve covers

offset power booster/master

new brake lines and adjustable prop valve

repainted block and manifolds


I need to hurry

 

[birdzilla]

Cleaned up real nice. Looks great! Good luck with the show.