Surge Tank

[Gary Tayman]

Ye Olde 64 Thunderbirde is sick again . . .

This time it’s a bit strange. For awhile I’ve noticed a slight anti-freeze smell a short time after heading down the road. Then it disappears. I’ve looked under the hood and found nothing – except a small blemish/buildup on the back side of the surge tank. Could this be a pinhole leak?

I never actually see it leaking – hot, cold, or in between. I’ve added anti-freeze, so there’s a small leak somewhere. So I cleaned off the blemish and applied black spray paint. Later, blemish returns.

Here’s where it gets weird: this morning I drove to the store to pick up a prescription. Being the first car in the driveway, I took the T-Bird. This was about four miles. I parked and got out. About a minute later I noticed steam coming from under the hood, so I opened it. Sure enough, steam was coming from that pinhole leak like a tea kettle. However there was also a cluster of steam coming up from the firewall – around the power brake booster. I could not see where this was coming from.

Went inside, picked up my prescription, went back out to the car. No steam. Got in the car and drove home. No steam.

Mystery #!: Has anyone ever heard of an intermittent leak of this sort? Temperature maybe? It appears to leak just as the engine is getting warm, then stops.

Mystery #2: Where is the other steam coming from? After thinking about it, I can only conclude that maybe the steam from the tank gathers by the firewall, then rises from that point. The heater core is on the other side, and if it leaks it would be inside the car – believe me I know it; this one’s new. But even if it were an inlet or hose, these are on the opposite side of the car. Then again, the surge tank is located more toward the heater than the brake booster. But it’s strange enough for ONE leak to be intermittent, let alone two, in sync.

I mentioned this to someone else on the internet. He told me he has a surge tank for a 63 Galaxie; I can have it for shipping. Seeing the price of these, and seeing as how this one has been repaired numerous times, I’d like to take him up on the offer. But – will a 63 Galaxie surge tank fit a 64 Thunderbird? Anyone know?

[boaterbob]

Interior steam may have been sneaking up through where the steering column exits the firewall. Sometimes the fill hole on the tanks are on different sides, But it don't matter. Not sure if thermostat holes are the same size on all tanks

[Cdhowell]

Try puting a pressure tester on the cooling system. You will know if you have another leak.

[Gary Tayman]

Broke down and got a NEW tank. It arrived in the mail and it looks great -- but I MUST scratch my head, on the box it sez SERGE TANK. Makes me wonder if they can't spell, just like an auto repair shop sign that says "Volkswagon Specialist." See 'em all the time.

Anyway, I'll try to put the thing in later today. Not worried about the tank, worried about what's going to blow next. Never had so much trouble keeping anti-freeze inside a car in all my life . . . and yes, I have two Chevys, both of which recently blew their manifolds, is it any wonder I'm paranoid?

[Gary Tayman]

Now I regret spending money on the surge tank.

It's in, new tank, new thermostat, new hose, new clamps. Filled it up, started car, and anti-freeze POURED out from the back of the engine block!

Maybe everyone else is right; maybe it's time to sell this thing for junk.

[boaterbob]

maybe it's something simple like the heated carb spacer or hose going to it.

[Gary Tayman]

As it appears now, looks like a freeze plug. Absolutely frustrating, as this is supposedly a new motor. Seems I'm constantly havivng major problems, and all of them are the result of shoddy workmanship.

I need another motor, but can't afford it because I spent all my money on the last one.

[Cdhowell]

A freeze plug is a far cry from a new motor. Are there other motor problems as well?

[Gary Tayman]

Originally Posted by Cdhowell

A freeze plug is a far cry from a new motor. Are there other motor problems as well?

Boy oh boy is THAT a loaded question!

Maybe the folks here haven't heard . . .

History of the car, in an attempt to be brief:

About 15 years ago I bought this car as a project to fix up. It had been sitting in Front Royal, Virginia, with rodents living in it. I had it shipped here, where I began cleaning it and doing a lot of restoration work. At first I did all the work myself -- not a mechanic, but learning as I'm going. Got the car roadworthy, and although still a bit rough, to the point where I could take it to car shows, locally and even across the state.

One problem I was still having, the motor leaked a lot of oil. I took it to a local mechanic that I trust; he recommended I purchase another motor. The heads have been milled incorrectly; there are other problems and we don't know what -- possibly engine block. SO -- I called up a Thunderbird specialist and parts dealer in Wisconsin for advice on where to get a good engine. He informed me he was building one as we speak. So I offered to buy it.

The motor arrived here, and my mechanic put it in. When I picked up the car, he informed me that he has it running good, but it appears to be using a lot of oil -- watch it carefully. I drove it to Venice and back -- 30 miles each way -- and it burned two quarts. I called, and was told to "Run it hard -- the rings will seat and you'll be fine." Hasn't happened. Meanwhile I've had to change plugs numerous times, and have had to pour in oil by the case.

One day I finally got fed up and had the motor pulled, to send back for warranty. My mechanic was extremely busy and could not change the motor, so I took the car to a local restoration shop. While there I asked them to fix the air conditioner and some other things. The motor was a "valve cover." He sent it back. The shop soaked me clean, and the car has been nothing but trouble ever since. The motor is awful -- problem is blow-by, and my guess is that it has the wrong rings put in. But that's not all; the exhaust manifolds leak, the intake leaks (I ran a bead of RTV along the edges and the vacuum went from 10 to 16), there are oil leaks all over the engine block, I can go on and on; it's a mess. As for the rest of the car, I've taken it back again and again for warranty repair, as everything they did was worse off than before. The "New" air conditioner has worked for only a few days total. I found out much later, elsewhere, that the "new" compressor was actually a junk compressor that was spray painted to look new.

I've talked to attorneys. For the motor, I could sue his pants off except I'd have to go to Wisconsin to do it. For the local shop, it's hard to do much because he continues to say "we stand behind our work." Take it back, and I get a story that "it's the blue wire; we only replaced the red wire, so this is new service and will be another $1,000.00."

So I've gotten nowhere. I'd buy a new motor, but I'm still paying off the bills from the former service. I was almost done with this car, and now I feel I'm back to square one. It's aggravating when I only drive it to a few local shows, and even THEN it's down 3/4 of the time for major problems -- nearly all of which are things that should have been fixed. C'mon, a freeze plug shouldn't blow out of a new motor!

To some people, this story is really getting old. But I guess I'll keep repeating it until it finally gets fixed. As for that local shop especially, the owner knows how visible I am at local car shows. I could become his best friend or his worst enemy; he chose the latter. He's lost a lot of business I know, but he's still there, darn it.

It WOULD be a nice car, if not for the incompetent crooks who have torn it up in the name of service.

[Gary Tayman]

Verdict:

Freeze plugs are fine, and new, but anti-freeze is pouring out of the intake manifold. Apparently instead of a gasket, there is silicone, which let go.

This mess has been leaking vacuum for some time. I've helped by putting RTV over it. Now maybe the mess will be fixed -- an improvement anyway. This is assuming we don't have a serious issue such as milled heads or whatever. I suppose I'll find out.

[redbird1]

Gary, I feel your pain.
The first thing you need to do is get that intake off, and clean both mating surfaces good before putting on new intake gaskets.
If the heads, and manifold arent warped due too excesive heat, you proably have that problem fixed with correct intake gaskets.
Now, the oil problem.
Check this before you install the intake again.
Do you see a lot of smoke coming out the tailpipe, and if so, what color is it?
The amount of oil the engine is using is extremely excessive, and what you might want to look at is the push rod cover (valley pan) gasket.
Something tells me it is missing, which would account for the huge amount of oil consumption.

When rebuilding an engine, that gasket is easy to overlook, and I have seen engines where it was not installed at all, especially the small rubber pieces that are on the extreme front and rear of the cover.
It makes for a real messy engine.
Check these two things I mentioned, and get back and let us know what you found.
Bob.

[Gary Tayman]

The situation here is, I'm not a mechanic, and I do not rebuild engines. I can do smaller work; I can tinker with various parts of the car, and yes indeed I can tell you anything you would ever want to know about the radio, but rebuilding engines is not my thing. I had hoped that buying a new engine would eliminate my problems with it, but it turned out to be only the beginning.

The day will come when, someday, I can pay off my credit card bills from the really bad service that has been dealt me, and maybe I'll try again. But until then I'll try to just keep the car running, driving it only to a few car shows and not much else, and even THAT has become a challenge.

I'd love to have the ability to pull this engine here, put it on a stand here, and with some tutor-help, take it apart and find the real problems, put it back together properly. This is supposed to be a new motor, built from a 64 T-Bird 390 block that has been bored .030 over. It has blow-by. Compression is around 85-90, depending on cylinder. If I was to place a bet on the problem, I think the rings used were incorrect size. But I'll probably never know because when the day comes, it'll most likely be replaced by a long block.

Meanwhile it's at a shop in Port Charlotte. This guy builds race cars and street rods; he should be able to fix a leak.

[Cdhowell]

You keep saying new motor, was it a short block? Did you squirt oil in the cylinders to see if compression came up? A head gasket would allow pressure into the cooling system, oil cunsumption, and poor performance. Leaking valve seals? Determine if its a top end or low end problem first.