I'm restoring a '57 E-Bird and would like to exchange info/tips/stories with anyone else out these who may have knowledge about this very involved and expensive process.
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[email protected]
1957 "E" Bird
- Thread starter ashmatk
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nomadbird
Well-known member
There are a few people on this forum who have either done it a time or two and others who are currently involved with a project. Before we can help you, there are a couple things you'll need to tell us: (1) What is your intended use for the finished product? Concours, Local show, or Driver. (2) Is authenticity a factor.
After we know your objectives, we can probably share our experiences with you and answer your questions. (if they're easy)
Tom
After we know your objectives, we can probably share our experiences with you and answer your questions. (if they're easy)
Tom
Tom, I would like to be able to enter the car in local shows and possibly go on some car runs and enter out of town shows. I have been able to get many hard to find parts for the dual quad car, but I draw the line at things like suspension parts, etc. FYI, my car is a '57 E bird with 3 spd OD, gunmetal. I do intend to repaint silver, so there goes a few points. 1 major item I'm lacking is a convertible top. My focus right now is suspension and mechanical. I'm doing a ground-up, not a frame off resto. Thanks for your reply, it helps to share info.
Ok, let's try a restoration question. I have a trim and sealer manual, as well as the usual reproduction manuals, but I haven't found any guidance on what colors I'm supposed to use on the undercarriage, suspension parts etc. When I look at my differential, it looks like it's red. Is that original? Do you paint the gas tank? Any source for these answers would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Brian
Well-known member
For all of those answers and more, join CTCI (www.ctci.org), and get their manuals and concourse rules(especially the concourse rules). These explain all of the colors in general, and some specific items that vary by year, like a particular bolt on a fender may be natural or painted.
I joined a year after I started my rebuild, and I should have joined a year before.
The differential stays red, by the way.
[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: Brian ]
I joined a year after I started my rebuild, and I should have joined a year before.
The differential stays red, by the way.
[ 05-08-2002: Message edited by: Brian ]
nomadbird
Well-known member
Brian gave you the best advice anyone could offer. Join CTCI. In addition to the Concours rule book, they offer a restoration details book. Not cheap, but it's loaded with high quality color photos.
I'd like to expand a little on your two specific questions:
(1) Differential third member proper color is Red Oxide. It looks like structural steel primer.
(2) Gas tank; buy a new one and clear coat it. Don't use powder coating. The reason I recommend a new tank is because after getting screwed over by Ford for 25 years with their overpriced incorrect tanks that didn't even have a drain plug, The repro tanks are a very high quality, authentic item. When you consider the tank price is about the same price as a single carb rebuild, why risk a contaminated fuel supply?
(3) When you determine the proper finish for a part is Cad/Zinc plated, don't be afraid of using Argent paint.
Cadmium and Zinc plating sources are getting progressively more difficult to find. I challenge anyone to look at a jack staff and identify it as cad or argent. You will also find "natural" is the proper finish for some items. Clear coating never seems to last. Look for products like "Blast Cast" etc. Careful selection of modern coating products will last much longer and cannot be determined as improper if you ever get into really serious point judging situation.
Keep the specific questions coming. I don't want to sit here and blab about something no one cares about.
Tom
I'd like to expand a little on your two specific questions:
(1) Differential third member proper color is Red Oxide. It looks like structural steel primer.
(2) Gas tank; buy a new one and clear coat it. Don't use powder coating. The reason I recommend a new tank is because after getting screwed over by Ford for 25 years with their overpriced incorrect tanks that didn't even have a drain plug, The repro tanks are a very high quality, authentic item. When you consider the tank price is about the same price as a single carb rebuild, why risk a contaminated fuel supply?
(3) When you determine the proper finish for a part is Cad/Zinc plated, don't be afraid of using Argent paint.
Cadmium and Zinc plating sources are getting progressively more difficult to find. I challenge anyone to look at a jack staff and identify it as cad or argent. You will also find "natural" is the proper finish for some items. Clear coating never seems to last. Look for products like "Blast Cast" etc. Careful selection of modern coating products will last much longer and cannot be determined as improper if you ever get into really serious point judging situation.
Keep the specific questions coming. I don't want to sit here and blab about something no one cares about.
Tom
Brian
Well-known member
Tom -
I've changed my name to "no one".
Keep blabbing. I could listen all day.
It's the little things that count. I've been thinking about the gas tank. Mine is good, but it did have the cap off for a few years. I was just going to dip it, and do the usual coating method inside.
But it looks like repros can be had for $260. Have to go now and work out the calculations.
Thanks.
Brian
I've changed my name to "no one".
Keep blabbing. I could listen all day.
It's the little things that count. I've been thinking about the gas tank. Mine is good, but it did have the cap off for a few years. I was just going to dip it, and do the usual coating method inside.
But it looks like repros can be had for $260. Have to go now and work out the calculations.
Thanks.
Brian
Repro gas tanks for the '57 can be had for $150.00. Check ebay. Just don't bid against me (aka "Kailey Bugs")please. Regarding the CTCI suggestion, thanks. I'm submitting my application today. On to more questions: I'm rebuilding the suspension, and have an opportunity to install a posi unit in the original 9" 28 spline rear differential for a few extra bucks. Any comments on this? Seems like a good idea to me. Should provide better traction and not hurt my concours points? I won't be doing any burn-outs for the judges. Right? Wrong?
nomadbird
Well-known member
I can't comment on the posi-traction rear end because I've never thought about it nor have I known anyone who has done it. Except for pinion seal replacement, those rear ends seem to last forever. If you stay in the 3.56:1 - 4.11:1 ratio range, performance should be O.K.. There is a new member on the board named 5bird7. He has hung around with a lot of performance oriented Bird owners in the Pacific Northwest and Texas. Hopefully he will chime in here and share some of his experiences.
That $150 gas tank sounds like a super buy. After you get yours, post a link here letting us know where you got it.
Since you are still in the suspension area; you might want to give some thought to firming up the rear suspension. There are sway bar kits available that may be used in conjunction with air shocks, springs with a sixth leaf etc. If I was to ever alter a Bird from stock, that is the first area I'd address. The rear suspension loading on these cars is extremely variable and it's all carried by the rear springs. There really isn't a happy compromise spring rate.
It's just too anemic and mushy 90% of the time. At least that's true for the way mine are used.
Tom
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: nomadbird ]
That $150 gas tank sounds like a super buy. After you get yours, post a link here letting us know where you got it.
Since you are still in the suspension area; you might want to give some thought to firming up the rear suspension. There are sway bar kits available that may be used in conjunction with air shocks, springs with a sixth leaf etc. If I was to ever alter a Bird from stock, that is the first area I'd address. The rear suspension loading on these cars is extremely variable and it's all carried by the rear springs. There really isn't a happy compromise spring rate.
It's just too anemic and mushy 90% of the time. At least that's true for the way mine are used.
Tom
[ 05-10-2002: Message edited by: nomadbird ]
ashmatk,
I'm not really in under 5bird7 but 0bird2. But I'm the person believed to be 5bird7. Sometimes I'm tricky that way. Anyway, If the posi rearend that you have access to is in the 3.56-4.11 ratio range like nomadbird mentioned, I'd put it in in a heartbeat. Be sure the right gear oils are used for the type of unit. I beleive Ford had at least two different types of limited slip differentials and they use different additive in the lube oils. It is not something a judge would see in normal Concours judging, so there would be no point deduction in a show. With having a stick/OD the posi would help in normal driving on wet roads. They can be suprising on ice at road speeds, but I'd expect the Bird to be home in a garage in that kind of road conditions. A big plus would be that you could come to Texas for the Birdsapaloosa 1/8th mile drags every year. I have 2.75:1 gears in my '57 (automatic) and would even use a posi with them if I had one available.
On the suggested suspension mods, if you can do them, they will make a big improvement on ride and handling. Rear air shocks are one of the best improvements to be made if you plan to travel much. I installed air shocks back in '78 or so and wouldn't be without them. They are the same as '74-'78 Courier pickups. Both Monroe and Gabrial carry them. The sway bars really improve stability and the shocks can be adjusted to whatever load you're carrying.
Have fun,
0bird2
NRH, TX
'57 Willow Green, Green softtop.
I'm not really in under 5bird7 but 0bird2. But I'm the person believed to be 5bird7. Sometimes I'm tricky that way. Anyway, If the posi rearend that you have access to is in the 3.56-4.11 ratio range like nomadbird mentioned, I'd put it in in a heartbeat. Be sure the right gear oils are used for the type of unit. I beleive Ford had at least two different types of limited slip differentials and they use different additive in the lube oils. It is not something a judge would see in normal Concours judging, so there would be no point deduction in a show. With having a stick/OD the posi would help in normal driving on wet roads. They can be suprising on ice at road speeds, but I'd expect the Bird to be home in a garage in that kind of road conditions. A big plus would be that you could come to Texas for the Birdsapaloosa 1/8th mile drags every year. I have 2.75:1 gears in my '57 (automatic) and would even use a posi with them if I had one available.
On the suggested suspension mods, if you can do them, they will make a big improvement on ride and handling. Rear air shocks are one of the best improvements to be made if you plan to travel much. I installed air shocks back in '78 or so and wouldn't be without them. They are the same as '74-'78 Courier pickups. Both Monroe and Gabrial carry them. The sway bars really improve stability and the shocks can be adjusted to whatever load you're carrying.
Have fun,
0bird2
NRH, TX
'57 Willow Green, Green softtop.
nomadbird
Well-known member
0bird2,
Does the screen name change indicate the long wait for the new one is over? As long as you never lose that '57 plate, we'll be able to identify you. I've always thought that had to be the most appropriate plate I had ever seen.
Tom
Does the screen name change indicate the long wait for the new one is over? As long as you never lose that '57 plate, we'll be able to identify you. I've always thought that had to be the most appropriate plate I had ever seen.
Tom
nomadbird
Well-known member
Thanks Stephen,
I'm not familiar with Auto City Classics. Could you give us an address, URL, phone etc?
It just goes to show how thoroughly FOMOCO was hosing us with their $500 tanks in the mid'90s.
Tom
I'm not familiar with Auto City Classics. Could you give us an address, URL, phone etc?
It just goes to show how thoroughly FOMOCO was hosing us with their $500 tanks in the mid'90s.
Tom
Now that I've got some recommendations from you folks, and also done some follow-up research and thought I'd share my findings:
Differential: There are many sources for 9" posi units including OEM units, available through ebay and others, and Auburn units. Eaton makes a great unit, but not for the 9" Ford yet. The Auburn unit cannot be rebuilt- so that's out. The best bet appears to be a rebuilt OEM unit. But beware, units from ebay or other parties may be in poor shape, requiring many new parts to provide a good operating posi. My conclusion is to pay my local driveline shop to rebuild, test and warrantee an OEM 28 spline posi. My gears are 3:88 which are fine. The extra bucks seem worth it for peace of mind.
Shocks and sway bars: I spoke with some great folks who make sway bars (front and rear) for the early birds. Their web site is: http://www.quickor.com/birdshots.html. These folks offer tested products and highly recommend high pressure gas shocks (KYB 5514's and 5517's) to be used in conjunction with their sway bars. The shocks can be had from discounttiredirect.com for $35.00 each with free shipping, and the sway bar prices are reasonable. My conclusion: Get the sway bars and the KYB shocks, and return the mushy Pep Boys specials I paid $100.00 for back to Larry's Thunderbird. Not that I'm bitter - I just know better now.
Gas Tank: I bought mine for $150.00 from ebay. With shipping, it's $170.00 out the door. The tank guys put these up for bid regularly, just search for "1957 Thunderbird".
Now that I've shared this, does anyone have any recommendations on frame paint or undercoating materials. I'm tearing the rear suspension apart now, and want to provide an original look, but with the best materials presently available.
Differential: There are many sources for 9" posi units including OEM units, available through ebay and others, and Auburn units. Eaton makes a great unit, but not for the 9" Ford yet. The Auburn unit cannot be rebuilt- so that's out. The best bet appears to be a rebuilt OEM unit. But beware, units from ebay or other parties may be in poor shape, requiring many new parts to provide a good operating posi. My conclusion is to pay my local driveline shop to rebuild, test and warrantee an OEM 28 spline posi. My gears are 3:88 which are fine. The extra bucks seem worth it for peace of mind.
Shocks and sway bars: I spoke with some great folks who make sway bars (front and rear) for the early birds. Their web site is: http://www.quickor.com/birdshots.html. These folks offer tested products and highly recommend high pressure gas shocks (KYB 5514's and 5517's) to be used in conjunction with their sway bars. The shocks can be had from discounttiredirect.com for $35.00 each with free shipping, and the sway bar prices are reasonable. My conclusion: Get the sway bars and the KYB shocks, and return the mushy Pep Boys specials I paid $100.00 for back to Larry's Thunderbird. Not that I'm bitter - I just know better now.
Gas Tank: I bought mine for $150.00 from ebay. With shipping, it's $170.00 out the door. The tank guys put these up for bid regularly, just search for "1957 Thunderbird".
Now that I've shared this, does anyone have any recommendations on frame paint or undercoating materials. I'm tearing the rear suspension apart now, and want to provide an original look, but with the best materials presently available.
nomadbird
Well-known member
Thanks to all who shared their sources for gas tanks. One of the reasons I recommended installation of a new tank earlier, was because the constantly changing gasoline formulations might dissolve some of the traditional tank coating materials. Who knows what's next?
Your question about undercarriage paint brings up a recommendation to try POR-15. I haven't used it because I do everything the hard way using traditional single stage paint while the body is off the frame. I have heard a lot of praise for this product. The users claim it may be brushed on even over areas with "tight" rust.
As far as undercoating is concerned; stay away from it. If the car is not gooped up with an asphalt or rubberized material already; steer clear. For thermal insulation and/or noise suppression, use something like Dynomat on the interior surfaces. Even after knocking yourself out trying to civilize this beast, they are still crude by contemporary standards.
Tom
Your question about undercarriage paint brings up a recommendation to try POR-15. I haven't used it because I do everything the hard way using traditional single stage paint while the body is off the frame. I have heard a lot of praise for this product. The users claim it may be brushed on even over areas with "tight" rust.
As far as undercoating is concerned; stay away from it. If the car is not gooped up with an asphalt or rubberized material already; steer clear. For thermal insulation and/or noise suppression, use something like Dynomat on the interior surfaces. Even after knocking yourself out trying to civilize this beast, they are still crude by contemporary standards.
Tom
The paint question is one that has been HEAVILY discussed in the yahoo classicbirds group. Several of those guys have a lot of experience with POR products, and others. Consensus of all of the posts I've read there, (and for about a week there were a good 10 a day) was don't use the POR over rust. Sand it clean first.
I beleive that POR15 needs to have a topcoat applied anywhere that it is exposed to light. UV will cause it to deteriorate. I don't have my book on POR15 products but you can go top their website at: http://www.por15.com
and see what they have to offer. I have not heard of any major complaints about the product. I did my frame in in black deltron with hardener but would do it with powdercoat next time (hope to never do it again).
If you are removing parts for refinish, you may want to look into powdercoating as an alternitive. It's great stuff.
Like nomadbird says, stay away from undercoating, insulate on the inside with some of the new products that are available. I put new padding/insulation in the floor of our car and it runs from the firewall to the rear axle hump. Cut down on road noise and I'm sure it helps cut down on heat.
George
'57 Willow Green, Green softtop
North Richland Hills, TX
[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: 0bird2 ]
and see what they have to offer. I have not heard of any major complaints about the product. I did my frame in in black deltron with hardener but would do it with powdercoat next time (hope to never do it again).
If you are removing parts for refinish, you may want to look into powdercoating as an alternitive. It's great stuff.
Like nomadbird says, stay away from undercoating, insulate on the inside with some of the new products that are available. I put new padding/insulation in the floor of our car and it runs from the firewall to the rear axle hump. Cut down on road noise and I'm sure it helps cut down on heat.
George
'57 Willow Green, Green softtop
North Richland Hills, TX
[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: 0bird2 ]
I am shopping for a 28 spline posi for my e-bird project and have an opportunity to a pick up a rebuilt one locally, but I have a question: Does anyone know of a way to test the condition/strength/etc of the posi unit while the differential is still in the car. Is there a way to lock one component, like a tire or the yoke, and attach a torque wrench to the free wheel? The guy's price is not cheap, so I am hesitant to buy this thing if I'm going to have to do a full clutch rebuild. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
